Report on North Thames LNC Fora and NE London Regional Consultants Committee

Information for the attention of

North Middlesex University Hospital Consultants and SAS

Members of the North Thames LNC Fora and NELondon RCC

Members of the London Regional Council Executive.

JDr reps

It should be noted that these are not minutes but my personal abbreviated notes of the two meetings. Both meetings took place 21st September 3 pm and 5 pm respectively

North Thames LNC Fora

It was noted at the beginning of the  meeting that previously minutes were taken by the secretarial support from the BM A but this has stopped because of internal restructuring in BMA England. There was a discussion raising concerns over  this loss without involvement of the membership affected.. It was pointed at that there were several people in the BMA administration to whom the Fora could direct their views. (Chris Drake and Raj Jethwa at BMA House).

The North Thames LNC Fora AGM included the election of Co-Chairs one from the North West London and one from North East London. Bernie Borgstein and John Firth were re-elected Co-Chairs of the Fora.The previous minutes were considered and matters arising discussed and a number of apologies given.

LNC representatives present gave reports relating to LNC matters from  the following Trusts :- Imperial; Royal Free Group; Whittington;  Barts Health; Homerton  North Middlesex; East London NHS Trust; Cental and North West NHS Trust; Chelsea and Westminster

This was followed by a short report by the Industrial Relations Officer.

I have summarised at the end what was said in both meeting combined without attribution to specific Trusts or reps for the most part.

North East London Regional Consultants Committee

The NELRCC followed on from this with the NWLRCC meeting also taking place.Those present included those at the Fora from the North East part of London. The minutes of the last meeting held on the 25th May 2015 were accepted. There were elections of officers Simon Walsh Bart’s was elected Chair. John Firth was elected Deputy Chair. John Firth was re-elected NELRCC rep on the London Regional Council executive council with the proviso there was no interest from a member of NWLondon RCC in which IROs would sort out.


Guardian of Junior Doctors

The represntatives present detailed the appoint of Guardian or Guardians of Junior Doctors. Trainees. Trainee numbers varied from 200 – 1000. There was a discussion of the number of PA’s attached to the position of guardian which appears to  have  a Tarrif of 1 – 1.5 PA per 200-250 trainees. There was a discussion how the Guardians will relate to the Staff side LNC and Joint LNC in each Trust. It is expected some advice will come from BMA House. Concerns were raised were there is one Guardian covering a number of quite distant hospitals in on large Trust,  particularly if there have to be several Junior Doctors  Forums to attend.

Role of the Education Supervisor with the new JDr contract

The representative of a large Trust said that some Juniors had shown reservations about the increased role of ES as the person to “complain to” as they would also be the ones who may be doing their ARCP. There was a discussion regarding one Trust having the contract for GP Trainees and how that would  wrk with their Educational Supervisor and Guardian. It was hoped that some clarification on a number of issues would come from the Junior Doctors Committee (the IRO will look into this).

Policies being reviewed at the various Trusts and other matters

Various policies at different Trusts were discussed . Job planning policy were being reviewed but at a number of Trusts there was “agreement to disagree” on a number of issues. A number of representatives pointed out they had successful got “additional to contract” removed from the Job planning software. Job planning appeals had taken place in several Trusts represented. One Trust pointed out that the appeal process had been inordinately long and could have been shortened by earlier mediation. Study leave was noted in a number of Trusts to be £800 – £1000 per consultant though one Trust who I will not name and shame gives no Study Leave money.

Several representative pointed out the need to keep an eye on Job Descriptions.

All representative agreed that for a 10 PA contract 1.5 SPAs are required for revalidation, CPD teaching research etc whilst 1 SPA for Quality and service. It  was noted in a number of Trust were this is not happening. It was also of interest that the only LNC rep present from a Trust classified “Outstanding” by CQC had the 7.5/2.5 split fully accepted by their trust.

CEA award panels have been meeting at a number of Trusts and others not. The way the panels are arranged and populated seems to vary a bit across North Thames. One Trust did not award all the points for a number of reasons. Several Trust LNC reps  brought to the meetings attention cases of Consultants with National awards losing them and going to 0.

Several Trusts LNCs have been discussing acting down policies with management.

Other Trust matters

Details were given of changes in executives in the North Thames are since the last meetings. Details were given from one Trust that had more than one hospital l hospital of how the LNC’s had merged but meetings rotated through the different sites. This group pointed out the good support they had from HR.

Mental Health Trusts have their own “issues” were multiple sites have multiple policies and one has taken over community services, Sexual health and palliative care.

Bart’s Health in running at a deficit of £140 million and had a CQC visit in July awaiting still the report. Another Trust had CQC in April with no report yet.

The discussion between RFH Group and NMUH and Whittington Health taking over NMUH Dermatology were discussed at the Fora and NELRCC

 Building matters

One representative gave a sorry tale of a building process that fell through because of the builders going  into liquidation leaving a £1.5 million hole in the ground and no insurance cover.

 Junior Doctor issues

The following points other than already detailed were expressed.

The need to improve facilities for JDr at some Trusts

Adequate number of JDR reps on some LNCs but some LNCs had strong active reps

In the event of industrial action for those JDr participating it is important that they do not have too much pay deducted.

Two documents were brought to the attention of the reps

See links


There was a discussion of the latest court case of Junior Doctors against SoS


Freedom to speak up Guardian

A number of Trusts have appointed the Freedom to Speak up Guardian

Those who have can be found at

An interesting e-lfh can be found at


Consultants Contract

The two members of UK-CC present at NELRCC Simon Walsh and John Firth gave some information. Further discussions have taken place over the summer. No CC Executive since June. Awaiting final offer which will be scrutinised followed by roadshows and a referendum after which CC members will consider the vote.


General discussion

There were discussion on a number of other issues relating to

Junior Doctor Industrial Action

Consultant Support for Juniors.

The state of “public opinion”

The governments use of media to get it’s views across.



Finally “ Out and About”

As I got into London a little earlier than expected I popped into  the Welcome Collection. I thoroughly recommend “Bedlam – the asylum and beyond” , which is free.


I may do a separate blog on this after I have read the book .


 John Firth

As Co Chair NTLNC Fora and Deputy Chair NELRCC